252 replies to this topic

[Monkeydog]

Who says there needs to be a start to existence anyways?

because anything that has a beginning naturally has an end. existence as we know it begins and ends with our lives.

That is not true, we just assume that everything does have that. There is no real proof that existence ever started, other than the fact that we are existing but that does not prove a starting point happened. It could have just always been. It could have not, but you don't know, and you won't know.

And if we look at life in some kind of religious standpoint, there is no end to lives, and in some religions there really was never a beginning.

There are a numerous amount of things you can argue could have possibly always been, because you really can not tell if there ever was a starting point(such as a hell of a lot of mathematical stuff). We want to believe that existence is like a natural life, but that doesn't have to hold true at all.

Also Serious Chat was deleted because it was deemed unnecessary...by someone. Forgot who.

[Anthony Totinos]

Who says there needs to be a start to existence anyways?

There doesn't have to be, but by the same accord, why not?
Also religion can be comforting even if it is real or not. And if it turns out to be false and there is no God, who cares? Are you going to be thinking in your lack of existence all the fun you could have had. Regret wouldn't exist because you wouldn't

Thats an extremely depressing statement. Either you wholeheartedly believe that there is a God that will take care of you when you die, or you don't. If you don't, you don't have to waste your time with church and prayer and whatnot. And if you do, you have that extra backing that helps you make it through the tough times.

Being completely certain on such an important thing is hard and it is naturally followed by doubt. I don't completely believe either just yet

[Vicious Parker]

You're uncertain about it, but call it important?

Who deems it important?

[halfjack]

Who says there needs to be a start to existence anyways?

There doesn't have to be, but by the same accord, why not?
Also religion can be comforting even if it is real or not. And if it turns out to be false and there is no God, who cares? Are you going to be thinking in your lack of existence all the fun you could have had. Regret wouldn't exist because you wouldn't

Thats an extremely depressing statement. Either you wholeheartedly believe that there is a God that will take care of you when you die, or you don't. If you don't, you don't have to waste your time with church and prayer and whatnot. And if you do, you have that extra backing that helps you make it through the tough times.

Being completely certain on such an important thing is hard and it is naturally followed by doubt. I don't completely believe either just yet

Its hard to put that much faith into something.

[Anthony Totinos]

You're uncertain about it, but call it important?

Who deems it important?

I'm uncertain as to what I believe but I do believe that it is an important decision/question. I deem it important for myself

[Vicious Parker]

Why is that?

Not that you aren't allowed to. I did for the longest time in my life, too. But I've grown away from such things.

[Stars]

i think god gave birth to himself, farted, and accidentally made the universe. my theory has a lot of potential, just you wait

[Anthony Totinos]

Why is that?

Not that you aren't allowed to. I did for the longest time in my life, too. But I've grown away from such things.

Why do I think it is important?

Basically, the way I see it, there is a 50-50 chance that I will either go to hell or spend my time worshiping nothing. Now, in my opinion, I'd rather spend some time being good and refrain from sinful activity as much as I can for the 80 or so years I'll probably live on the chance that their is a God and that the 80 years would have paid off and turn into an eternity of awesome. Now, if there is no God or heaven, and I spend my life praying, I may have wasted some of my life but will I regret it, no? There is no after life, I can't think, I can't have regret.

[Vicious Parker]

Your chart is highly flawed, mostly in the bottom left corner. Why should not believing in god, and then having god be real, make you sad? That's just assuming that all the craziness about a vengeful god and crap is true. But why should it be? OK, so some dusty old book says so, but lots of dusty old books say lots of dusty old things.

And are you implying you can only live a good *ahem* "sin free life by being religious?

I'd rather spend some time being good and refrain from sinful activity as much as I can for the 80 or so years I'll probably live on the chance that their is a God and that the 80 years would have paid off and turn into an eternity of awesome

that's the impression that I'm getting. how totally short sighted. are you saying you've never met a nice person who didn't have a religion? they exist, you know. they're everywhere.

and also, how do you know that heaven, or whatever, is going to be an eternity of awesome? oh yeah, that dusty old book again. vague descriptions of happiness and like... milk and honey or something. yes, real tangible rewards for years of dedicating your life to someone you have no way of ever proving exists.

besides, my chart for what i choose to believe has a 75% chance of making me happy, and I'll take those odds.

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[halfjack]

that's the impression that I'm getting. how totally short sighted. are you saying you've never met a nice person who didn't have a religion? they exist, you know. they're everywhere.

and also, how do you know that heaven, or whatever, is going to be an eternity of awesome? oh yeah, that dusty old book again. vague descriptions of happiness and like... milk and honey or something. yes, real tangible rewards for years of dedicating your life to someone you have no way of ever proving exists.

Although I agree that it is extremely short sighted, I'm pretty sure he's got the right idea with the whole, "live a good life and hope for the best" thing he's got going on. Being an athiest, I actually find myself getting jealous of people with religion. I'd love to believe, with no doubt whatsoever, that there is an afterlife...but the more I think about it, the more ridiculous the idea of religion is.

[Anthony Totinos]

Your chart is highly flawed, mostly in the bottom left corner. Why should not believing in god, and then having god be real, make you sad? That's just assuming that all the craziness about a vengeful god and crap is true. But why should it be? OK, so some dusty old book says so, but lots of dusty old books say lots of dusty old things.

And are you implying you can only live a good *ahem* "sin free life by being religious?

I'd rather spend some time being good and refrain from sinful activity as much as I can for the 80 or so years I'll probably live on the chance that their is a God and that the 80 years would have paid off and turn into an eternity of awesome

that's the impression that I'm getting. how totally short sighted. are you saying you've never met a nice person who didn't have a religion? they exist, you know. they're everywhere.

and also, how do you know that heaven, or whatever, is going to be an eternity of awesome? oh yeah, that dusty old book again. vague descriptions of happiness and like... milk and honey or something. yes, real tangible rewards for years of dedicating your life to someone you have no way of ever proving exists.

besides, my chart for what i choose to believe has a 75% chance of making me happy, and I'll take those odds.

I don't think it is flawed, it's how I feel. I'm looking at a worst case scenario with a vengeful God in that chart. And to call something that half of the worlds population a hold true a "dusty old book" is nothing short of insulting to them.
No I'm not implying that. If I wanted to say that, I would have.
I've met many nice nonreligious people. I don't recall calling atheists or agnostics or what have you mean people or non nice people.
I don't know; just like yourself or anyone else here. The chart makes assumptions based on what I believe or think is possible, that is implied as with virtually everything else in this thread. No one knows for sure but most have an opinion on the matter; each as valid as the next. And my personal opinion on the whole "prove God exists" argument is that is completely unnecessary. If I find something that puts my soul at ease and gives me reassurance, I don't care what science says about the matter; it's bigger than science.

[Vicious Parker]

I actually don't want anyone here, or anyone I know to prove god exists.

I want god to do it.

I also don't believe that any so called loving god should allow people to believe in a 'worst case scenerio.'

[Anthony Totinos]

What would you consider proof positive for God's existence?
Why wouldn't he? Maybe it is what it takes for that person to start seriously consider religion and their views on it.

[rosedragon]

I'm absolutely think people shouldn't being too fanatic with theirs religion or with theirs scientific theories. None of both can really be proven. What more important is how we express what we believe by doing it. Arguments doesn't tell people how good is your religion/scientific believe but more like your way to boost your ego and because it is easier to spit out what you believe than commit it.

If you believe in religion and your religion teaches you to love others (I believe bible and Jesus taught that for Christians), just damn do it. If you believe in science and science can make people have better life, then show it. Anything that useless.. like try to proving how the world created-- should be dumped because our life in earth is short. That is, if you believe in something.

About if life has no purpose. Is it your life? If your answer is yes, then the purpose is your own decision. Either if the purpose is just to survive, have a family, get rich, or gain heaven.

While history had pointed blood spills in the name of religion, imo, it was the differences that pour the blood. Religion also can be guidelines for behavior, some of us can't be a good person without scare of God or hell.

The best religion argumentation is drawn here: http://www.ctrlaltde....php?d=20070622 Read further stories :)

[Resonator]

I think the picture that "The Walrus" posted (If it was him/her who drew it) is a perfect example of a test for yourselves. Take the chart, and redraw the images within the boxes yourselves, and remember to re-read what the boxes actually represent.

To use another example, I'll post a quote from a very nice song I know:

Set me free,
your heaven's a lie,
Set me free with your love,
Set me free, yeah!

The Truth (The only necessary one)

So for those of you who wanted proof of his existence; Where did you really need to look for it when it was before your eyes the entire time? If you believed in the truth, that perhaps only a select few can teach you in this world, then where would you turn to for your strength? When all was lost, and you were left with nothing, where was the brighter side of things? When you know the truth about the existence of God, then you will understand that it is not to the sky that the plea should be sent, but it is within yourself, for you are the Trinity as God is with all things, always and forever.

Sciences Standpoint (From what I know)

Energy, as we know, requires there to be negative and positive. We already have proof of this, that in all things, there are electrons surrounding and within each atom, respectively. It is not to say that these are the smallest things in the universe, but since they interact the most with the world that is around us (Dropping and gathering valence electrons) it is logical to assume that within the Atom itself lies the truth, that the positive within us never drops. That being said as fact, we already know that, in terms of negative to positive, is that we add weight to the atom by picking up negative electrons. Whatever is in the universe exists and cannot be destroyed, in terms of atoms and such. But do we really know, have we even bothered to find out what happens to the energy within us?

It may be hodgepodge to some, but I'd start my research there. Don't know where you were lookin. It's just a rough theory (And how ridged it is, those peaks and valleys prove nothing...) but it is the most logical start. When you look for energy, go find it.

[Vicious Parker]

The thing is that as soon as you begin to look at all religions as equal, which they are, no arguments for any religion make sense anymore.

What you're saying sounds great and happy sunshiney and all, but as far as an argument goes, that sort of thing would only work on someone who is trying to find god through christianity.

The promise of eternal life and bliss and puppies is very nice, but I know another religion that has been promising that for longer than yours. And another for longer than his. Who do I trust? For right now, I'm not trusting a single one.



And I also refuse to accept that any loving god would punish his creations to eternal damnation, so the walrus' picture will continue to be useless to me. Yes, there are bad people in the world, and I can't claim to know what happens any of us when we die. Eternal damnation and torture just make no sense to me. I couldn't be part of a religion that uses fear and punishment as encouragement for being a good person.

By the way, hello completely random person. Unless you're not that random and there's a conspiracy here.

[kspr]

i completely agree, and thats my entire problem with religion. why does god care what we do if god is as loving and sunshiney as everybody says? why cant we just live our lives the way we choose, and not have to worry because in the back of our minds, we know god has our backs?

has anybody read/listened to/seen George Carlin's ten commandments revision?

[Monkeydog]

i completely agree, and thats my entire problem with religion. why does god care what we do if god is as loving and sunshiney as everybody says? why cant we just live our lives the way we choose, and not have to worry because in the back of our minds, we know god has our backs?

Well that statement is pretty much only true in Christianity.

Other religions either don't have a happy loving god, or don't have to worry about everything they do.

[Vicious Parker]

That's not true at all, monkey.

[Anthony Totinos]

The thing is that as soon as you begin to look at all religions as equal, which they are, no arguments for any religion make sense anymore.

What you're saying sounds great and happy sunshiney and all, but as far as an argument goes, that sort of thing would only work on someone who is trying to find god through christianity.

The promise of eternal life and bliss and puppies is very nice, but I know another religion that has been promising that for longer than yours. And another for longer than his. Who do I trust? For right now, I'm not trusting a single one.



And I also refuse to accept that any loving god would punish his creations to eternal damnation, so the walrus' picture will continue to be useless to me. Yes, there are bad people in the world, and I can't claim to know what happens any of us when we die. Eternal damnation and torture just make no sense to me. I couldn't be part of a religion that uses fear and punishment as encouragement for being a good person.

By the way, hello completely random person. Unless you're not that random and there's a conspiracy here.

You don't need an argument for a religion though. You just need it to make sense and seem right to you.

Time is irrelevant. It doesn't matter who said what first, just who said something that you agree with

That is a very good point and I don't fully agree with eternal damnation, but I still do believe in the possibility of paradise. Maybe the Bible is wrong, just assuming a Christian view here. What if you spend only a certain amount of time in Hell? I'm not certain about that point.