24 replies to this topic

[Monkeydog]

I think you make a good point. I was absolutely at fault last time I played by your reasoning. I think it's that everyone just needs to get on the same page of how much this is a game and how much of it is an RP. I think most of us take it as mainly a game and don't even think about the PMs as to even having to be in character.

[Kamau]

Talking more with Puffin, she explained to me (probably the exact same thing that Monkey said to me earlier) that a character might know they're, say, the hunter, but they wouldn't have heard a booming voice from god going "YOU ARE THE HUNTER". So they can tell someone "oh yeah, I'm the hunter" but not "I HEARD A VOICE FROM GOD!" So Monkey, if that's what you were trying to explain to me earlier (it probably was, haha), I completely understand the difference now. I'm not sure why I didn't get it the first time. XD 

 

I'm assuming that's what you all mean by staying 'in character' in PMs? If so, I totally get it (finally). But if not, can someone explain it to me better? 

[lazlo falconi]

I'm replying to this thread as I read it, so some information I reply to may have already been contradicted by later posts, but I just want to give my thoughts on each post here as they come to me, raw and (mostly) uncut.

Guys, I'm sorry, but I think you're all seriously overreacting. I don't even understand what part of what's gone on in the game is the unfair part. Choosing whether to give information or not is completely that - a choice. It's possible to lie. It's possible to not give all the information. It's possible to twist words and make people believe something that's only mostly true.

There are things going on throughout the game that are true. There are things that are lies. There are things that are half truths. Some people believe they've learned something that isn't how it really is. Others know the truth and don't know how to use it.

This game is all about choosing your words carefully. You never give all your information, you figure out a contingency plan, and you strategize and figure out how to get yourself info the majority. It's the same way as forming alliances in shows like survivor. Not everyone is going to like how everyone else goes about playing the game, but that doesn't make it illegal.

These games have always involved both in-game and out of game conversations. Normally I like to study how people choose to react in posts, but that's been practically impossible in this game because almost everyone has been sticking to dialogue. I'll have you know I spent the entire train ride figuring out the loophole in legacy's strategy using only in-game context because my character doesn't know everything that I know. Yes I am still basing my choice on out of game context, but I made sure to have in game words to back it up. But it was ridiculously difficult to do.

Look at previous games and how they were played. Heck, I got lynched one time because I was "too quiet" because I didn't have time to post. Another time I was murdered in my sleep by someone who wasn't even a listed killer because they didn't want to wait to convince people to lynch me. The standing joke is that I never make it past the first round, but do you see me getting calling anything that happens unfair?

I've been pestered via PM, via IM, face to face. I've lied to people, sometimes I've convinced them of half truths, sometimes I haven't. One time I actually WAS a killer but I managed to convince people via IM that I was innocent. This entire game depends on you being smarter than everyone else, and planning ahead. Heck, I've even sent fake screenshots to people. It's always, in the end, your choice whether to believe something or not, and my only goal is to convince you of what I need you to believe to survive.

It's a game, people, and frankly, I have been enjoying this game more than any other one we've done before. I've theorized about possible twists, made contingency plans, made alliances.I've been having a blast. I'm sorry if you haven't.

 
You seem to misunderstand. Talking out of the game isn't the problem here. Glace asked Leggy about his PM stating his role. He was basing decisions on the fact that Leggy did not know (And could not know) that innocent characters received a PM stating "YOU ARE AN INNOCENT". This is partially my fault, since I didn't need to send this message to everyone, but last time some people were confused when the received no instruction on how to continue.

The problem wasn't talking to Leggy through PM--this is part of the game, and in fact encouraged! It brings a lot of depth and strategy that just wouldn't work out well in the thread. I love at the end of the game finding out about all of the little alliances and betrayals that went on behind the scenes.

but this is something different. This is using an out-of-game element to create a situation that is very difficult to be prepared for and to block. Think of this, if I hadn't sent that PM to every innocent player, and I did not need to, then this strategy wouldn't have worked. That's what makes it wrong. Not that it happened in secret.
 

In addition to what Kamau posted, I propose that if a line was crossed, that there needs to be rules in the first place.
 
We have absolutely no standard of how the game should be played, no written rules of what is allowed, especially outside of the RP thread. In order for someone to cheat, there needs to be rules established and there were not. Maybe what happened could have broken the game, but without any rules, it's implied that we can play however we want and that all moves are legal

 
Perhaps you're right, perhaps I should have stated more specific rules, but the thing is, I want this game to be more open and allow more creativity from the players to flow through. This isn't a Role Play, like this forum is used to. This is a Role Playing Game. The "game" is Mafia, and we follow those rules. It combines that game with role playing in what I think is a rather unique way that allows for certain things that aren't normally available in the game itself--for instance, weapons, finding secret passages, and things of that nature.

For instance, in the last game, the whole sizzling blood thing was never part of the plan. It happened only after Amethyst decided to grab the knife--which was something I hadn't even considered. Things like this have popped up in every in-game day and it's what gives the game it's depth and makes it fun, and I really don't want to stifle that by creating tonnes of rules and making you play around them. However, as I said before:

In any role playing group, [metagaming] is generally frowned upon, and when the game specifically relies on misdirection and suspicion, it breaks the game.

It should be a given, especially since nobody in this group is new to the concept of RPs. Again, i want to point out, it's not using information you learned outside of the context of the game that's the problem here. It's using information about the mechanics of the game, and basing decisions on whether or not someone knows what sort of PMs innocents got. The only way to beat that is to have asked an innocent what their PM said, and hope they both answer, and answer truthfully.

(though I frankly don't believe so, since, as it has been pointed out by both Glace and Kamau, there are many ways to get past all of this trickery- all you need is your wits to do so).

Not really. As I said above, the only way to get past that certain question is to already know what that PM said. Yeah it's possible, but not very likely, especially since, wanting to avoid suspicion, Zeds would be unlikely to ask such questions. This is the very root of the problem, and it's actually my fault for wanting to send each person a PM.

If anyone is approached with a request they are not comfortable with from here on out, then feel free to report it to Lazlo.

I don't think this is necessary, I just wish people would not ask about the mechanics of the game.

I also don't have any problem with people choosing to win that way if they want to.

In a normal game of Mafia, I don't either. But I spent a good deal of time making the setting and the story, and to go that way just kind of spits in my face. Again, if you want to play like that, and that's fine, go play epicmafia.

Though I'm inclined to think it doesn't affect the overall outcome, since as has been said by Lazlo, the deck is stacked heavily against the zombies in the first place.

It may not effect the outcome, but it does change the flow of the game. Although you would have likely ended up dead, it might not have been on the first night of lynching. You could have gone on to take out more of the innocents.

Yes, there was the chance we could accidentally request it of a zombie, but we most of the people in our alliance were close friends, so it never seemed like a problem

But this is still a problem. Just because you can trust these people in real life, doesn't mean you can trust them in game, and you're using real life reasoning (Stars wouldn't be out to kill me if I accidentally revealed I'm the doctor) to justify in-game actions.

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About this screenshots thing, I can only say I'm completely aghast. Even though most of us are pretty smart and would easily be able to fake a screenshot, how could such a thing ever be thought of as okay? This is the problem, you're not giving others the chance to lie and deceive--or at least, not within the context of the game. Part of the fun of mafia is that someone can lie, and join such an alliance, and send it down the wrong path, or help cover up the "mafia"'s tracks.

Of course sending screenshots wasn't explicitly against the rules, because I never once even considered this would be or even could be a factor. Even with Photoshop, it's difficult to fake a screenshot simply due to the way modern web browsers display fonts. You'd almost have to create a copy of the Monkeypro PM page, and alter the text to create a convincing fake. I don't know about you, but to me, this would cease being fun. I wouldn't care enough about a game to go through that trouble.

I know you want to be able to form a team you trust, but are you really so afraid of loosing the game that you resort to breaking it to make sure you don't?

Scramble roles. Revive Leggy. Adjust rules. Continue play.

I think I might just make a new scenario.
 

Here is the screenshot I sent to Puffin.

[ img ]

I have like 200 PMs this week on this RP alone. I think everyone loved the game and just want to play it. Can we put this past us and laugh about this later? Please resurrect this game, Laz. Personally, I just want to play. Tell me the rules and I'll abide by them. Can we just have a do over or something?

Well this changes things a bit, but still, to have even been asked about this is a bit much.

Sure, you don't have to give anything away, but anything you say out of character in a PM can be used against you, which is dumb because it breaks the story and the whole point of roleplaying.

I think you have it wrong. Talking in secret and PMing or using IM or whatever is great, and really adds to the game, as I said before.

I think most of us take it as mainly a game and don't even think about the PMs as to even having to be in character.

Well, it doesn't have to be in character. You can PM and talk about the game, and use out-of-character converstations to reason out what to do. That's fine. It's just when you automatically resort to getting proof of some mechanic of the game that irritates me.

a character might know they're, say, the hunter, but they wouldn't have heard a booming voice from god going "YOU ARE THE HUNTER". So they can tell someone "oh yeah, I'm the hunter" but not "I HEARD A VOICE FROM GOD!"

THIS. SO VERY THIS. You can be as honest or deceitful as you want, and any player can ask any question they want, so long as the answer could be attained through some in-universe means. If you were really in Uncle Dagoberts Bayou Bungalow, you wouldn't ask someone if their PM said they were innocent, you'd try to talk to them and catch them in a lie.

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I guess this is why I'm not very good at actually playing Mafia. I don't have the cut throat attitude it takes to abuse the system. And for the record, the PM thing wasn't the sole factor here, it was just the straw that broke the camels back, and a very big glaring example that was easy to use to illustrate my point.

I haven't decided yet if I want to continue this game or not, but I'm fairly certain I'll try another game at some point in the future. I just want to reiterate that I'm not condemning talking outside of the game, nor am I saying if someone slips up in normal conversation that you shouldn't be allowed to use that as a reason to be suspicious. I'm just saying that you shouldn't ask people about the mechanics of the game.

I know it's kind of stupid for me to say, "Well this is how I want you to play the game" and "If you don't play it like me you're not playing right", but for this very specific point, and because I do spend so much time writing up these posts, I think it's fair for me to ask you to just play the game, instead of playing the rules.

[Kamau]

As much as I was ecstatic to finally feel like I had a chance at surviving one of our murder mysteries, and even though I'd love to see if any of my theories about your twists were accurate, I'd say to let sleeping dogs lie and head on to a new scenario. I know I, for one, would end up second-guessing every move I made if we continued the current one, and I'd rather not do that. 

[Glaciermage]

I know it's kind of stupid for me to say, "Well this is how I want you to play the game" and "If you don't play it like me you're not playing right", but for this very specific point, and because I do spend so much time writing up these posts, I think it's fair for me to ask you to just play the game, instead of playing the rules.

 

I don't think it's stupid at all. It is fair because as you said, you put a lot of work into it, it's your game and you have the right to make the rules. Even though you say it isn't necessary, I think I may Role Play in the PMs as much as possible as well. I always did this when posting night actions. I think it will make the game even more fun.