24 replies to this topic

[lazlo falconi]

So tonight I learned of a lot of metagaming that's been going on in Con of the Dead. If you don't know, metagaming in RPGs is using the rules of the game against itself. Using knowledge your character couldn't possibly have, but due to the fact that a game has rules and they have to be explained, the players can know. In any role playing group, this is generally frowned upon, and when the game specifically relies on misdirection and suspicion, it breaks the game.

I'm honestly thinking about stopping this game, and not doing another one. From what I've learned, everything is already out in the open, and nearly every player knows who the other zombies are.

I don't want to mention any names and put a black mark on that player, but what's basically happened is that one player was asking others about their PMs, and when Leggy didn't give a satisfactory answer, the player used that information to decide who to follow, and thus who to lynch. This breaks the game. There is no way for any player to beat this, and thus you've created an unwinnable situation for the zombies.

As if that's not despicable enough on it's own, I should mention that I've already stacked the deck against the zombies! A zombie win in this game, while possible, would be very, very hard, and by getting all the information on day one, you've made it impossible for these players to win, and difficult for them (and yourselves!) to have fun.

I made this game so that it would last a couple weeks, give us something to do and a way to have fun, but at the rate this is going, it will be over by Thursday anyway, since the players will all magically be killing only the right people. If you want a quick game of mafia, that's fine, go play Epic Mafia.

But I spent time to create a world and a scenario for you to play in. I made a specific set of rules, placed clues in the game, and expected you to work out in character who was who. If you don't want to play in that scenario, that's fine, but please don't ruin the fun for the rest of us who do.

[Monkeydog]

I want to say, Lazlo, I really enjoy the amount if effort you put into these things and I loved the last one so much I made a contest out of it. So I hope you keep doing it, despite this. I really wish I could have participated more but I've been pretty busy lately.

To everyone else. That really kind of sucks and takes the fun out of it. Even on a non RPing level it takes the mystery out of the game, and really doesn't make it a game anymore. Last time we won pretty quickly and there was no such shenanigans going on (at least as far as I remember). So I don't see the point of such trickery. Sad days.

[Kamau]

I wasn't aware that these games were restricted to in-game deductions. 

 

That being said, sorry to hear it'll end the game. I'm sure you had lots of twists and turns prepared, and I was pretty darned excited to finally feel prepared to survive for once. From the sound of it, though, my excitement is apparently due to some form of illegal means, considering the only thing I did in-game was explore the library (twice). 

[Monkeydog]

Well PMing and stuff outside of the topic is fine. But Lazlo is saying asking specifically what he says in a PM as GM and basing assumptions off that is cheating, I believe. Which I agree to.

[Kamau]

Understandable. I'd say it should be up to each person to choose whether to share what was said in their PM or not, but I can understand why it could be considered a trap.

 

That being said, people can't always take what people say when asked to heart. 

 

But I do get what you're saying.

[Monkeydog]

Well not saying what you are immediately raises a red flag to an innocent. Especially if they can just track them to see. Which defeats the purpose of the game and makes it absolutely unfair.

EDIT: also might not be as bad as I am assuming it is. (But I also doubt lazlo would post such things if not serious business) Just kinda sucks, especially since if it played out longer we could have done more like last time.

[Glaciermage]

I don't want to say too much, because I don't know what the status of the game is at this point.

 

I will say that I am THE prime offender in this. I would assume everyone knows that, since I asked a number of people about their PM. I am in no way defending my actions. I thought at the time it was unfair, but part of the game. If I knew it was this frowned upon I would've NEVER done it. So I sincerely apologize to Lazlo and everyone else playing the game. I really hope you reconsider not doing another one, Laz. It was an honest mistake and not blatant cheating, and it wouldn't happen again.

 

As I said, I do think it was unfair. I even sent Lazlo a PM before he made this thread (that he hasn't checked yet) explaining this was taking place so it could be protected against in the future. If everyone knew the words YOU ARE AN INNOCENT were said to the normal people, it wouldn't have power anymore.

 

On the other hand, I don't think it creates an entirely unwinnable situation either. As Kamau said, you can just not say your PM. I got that response from innocents and role players alike. Also, I know that some people didn't get those words, but found them out immediately. I know the words. What was my role in the game? Innocent? Doctor? Hunter? Zombie? If a zombie got the words he could go undetected for quite some time.

 

But again, I'm not defending what I did. I can see now how wrong it is and again I'm sorry.

[Xteven Xavier]

Well I had no idea this was going on and it's complete bullshit. I was trying very hard to stay in character now glace I hope you don'g mind if I flatly deny your request at this time. I already responded to your pm but did not tell you my status. If you think I'm guilty lynch me tomorrow but know it's a mistake.

[Kamau]

Guys, I'm sorry, but I think you're all seriously overreacting. I don't even understand what part of what's gone on in the game is the unfair part. Choosing whether to give information or not is completely that - a choice. It's possible to lie. It's possible to not give all the information. It's possible to twist words and make people believe something that's only mostly true.

There are things going on throughout the game that are true. There are things that are lies. There are things that are half truths. Some people believe they've learned something that isn't how it really is. Others know the truth and don't know how to use it.

This game is all about choosing your words carefully. You never give all your information, you figure out a contingency plan, and you strategize and figure out how to get yourself info the majority. It's the same way as forming alliances in shows like survivor. Not everyone is going to like how everyone else goes about playing the game, but that doesn't make it illegal.

These games have always involved both in-game and out of game conversations. Normally I like to study how people choose to react in posts, but that's been practically impossible in this game because almost everyone has been sticking to dialogue. I'll have you know I spent the entire train ride figuring out the loophole in legacy's strategy using only in-game context because my character doesn't know everything that I know. Yes I am still basing my choice on out of game context, but I made sure to have in game words to back it up. But it was ridiculously difficult to do.

Look at previous games and how they were played. Heck, I got lynched one time because I was "too quiet" because I didn't have time to post. Another time I was murdered in my sleep by someone who wasn't even a listed killer because they didn't want to wait to convince people to lynch me. The standing joke is that I never make it past the first round, but do you see me getting calling anything that happens unfair?

I've been pestered via PM, via IM, face to face. I've lied to people, sometimes I've convinced them of half truths, sometimes I haven't. One time I actually WAS a killer but I managed to convince people via IM that I was innocent. This entire game depends on you being smarter than everyone else, and planning ahead. Heck, I've even sent fake screenshots to people. It's always, in the end, your choice whether to believe something or not, and my only goal is to convince you of what I need you to believe to survive.

It's a game, people, and frankly, I have been enjoying this game more than any other one we've done before. I've theorized about possible twists, made contingency plans, made alliances.I've been having a blast. I'm sorry if you haven't.

[Puffin]

In addition to what Kamau posted, I propose that if a line was crossed, that there needs to be rules in the first place.

 

We have absolutely no standard of how the game should be played, no written rules of what is allowed, especially outside of the RP thread. In order for someone to cheat, there needs to be rules established and there were not. Maybe what happened could have broken the game, but without any rules, it's implied that we can play however we want and that all moves are legal (though I frankly don't believe so, since, as it has been pointed out by both Glace and Kamau, there are many ways to get past all of this trickery- all you need is your wits to do so).

 

I would say that if Lazlo is going to continue this game, those of us who have used trickery will refrain from doing so for the duration of this game. If anyone is approached with a request they are not comfortable with from here on out, then feel free to report it to Lazlo.

 

However, in the future these games must have some written rules ahead of time to avoid a situation like this; should anyone find a way to exploit the loopholes of those rules, those moves should be considered entirely legal for the duration of that game (future games can be amended to outlaw such actions, but they would be legal for that game).

[kspr]

im glad im not the only sociopath playing. well said.

[legacyme3]

I think it's also being blown a "little" out of proportion here. 

 

I have messaged both Puffin and Glace, and I'm sure they get that I don't really hold anything against them, because there's nothing in the rules that explicitly says they can't "metagame". I also don't have any problem with people choosing to win that way if they want to.

 

I "do" think the rules need to change a small amount, mostly to prevent this type of mess from happening again, but I also think there's nothing one can really do about it. In the end, players are human and the goal of the game is to win. People tend to do whatever they can possible to win. This goes for everyone on both sides.

 

Does it suck to be on the receiving end of it? Yes. Does it suck to have it happen to someone else? Yes. Does it kill a game and make it unwinnable for the zombies? That remains to be seen. Though I'm inclined to think it doesn't affect the overall outcome, since as has been said by Lazlo, the deck is stacked heavily against the zombies in the first place.

 

I host a game similar to this offsite, and had a similar problem (though different) with people screenshotting their PMs. It wasn't labeled as "against the rules", but had this been done in this game, what would the players be saying? I quickly amended the rules in that case to prevent such a thing, yet a player attempted to break the rules anyway. I was sent proof of this treachery, and blacklisted the offending player.

 

The point of the above passage is to point out this isn't a "problem" unique to this game or site, it happens almost everywhere.

 

I've lost my original train of thought, but I don't really see it as a big problem, since there's nothing in the rules saying you can't do it. But it does suck to be on this end of it. Nothing more and nothing less. 

[Kamau]

That's an appropriate example, legacy. While I still don't understand why that would become a problem, I like that you decided to adjust the rules and explain to people that it would no longer be allowed, following then by acting if people continued to do it. Even if you don't agree that something shouldn't be allowed, once it's in the rules it's to be respected because the gm has decided to say they don't want it happening.

I can definitely respect that.

[Stars]

I can see why it would be frowned upon. PMs and IMs are like whispering to other characters, so that could be considered in-character. But screenshots of our player roles are things that do not exist within the milieu of the game.

 

Really, though, if we did find a zombie on the first night (there was no confirmation in-game), it was mostly luck.

 

EDIT: To be forthcoming, I did exchange screenshots with one other player. Although theirs turned out to be a fake, and mine was censored.

[Puffin]

For anyone not already in the know of the screenshot issue, that was entirely my fault. Basically, When Glace first approached me, he told me he was the doctor and asked for the specific words that were stated in my PM. I figured he was lying because last game, Stars claimed to be the doctor. So, I offered to trade screen shots instead.

 

This was only ever used in building alliances. I, nor any of my team mates, approached anyone with the request of a screenshot with the intent of divulging a zombie. Yes, there was the chance we could accidentally request it of a zombie, but we most of the people in our alliance were close friends, so it never seemed like a problem (essentially, Kamau, Stars and myself). I did ask it of Hyperlisk after he said he was willing to join our team. Though, by that point, I was worrying that it was being over abused, and when Hyperlisk said he wondered if it'd count as cheating, I basically decided not to ask it of anyone else. Had someone refused to give me a screenshot, that would've been fine. I can understand if people are worried about complying with that since it seemed iffy, and they might not trust me, ect. No one was ever going to be targeted because they refused to give a screenshot.

 

Just to make it clear, I already PMed everyone on my team last night that there would be no more screenshots. Should the game continue and someone get a request like that, again, report the perpetrator.

[Hyperlisk]

Scramble roles. Revive Leggy. Adjust rules. Continue play.

[legacyme3]

Nah, I don't think I should be revived, or anything. 

 

Like I said, I don't even really have a problem with this.

[Glaciermage]

Here is the screenshot I sent to Puffin.

 MonkeyCon2.gif   103.2K   25 downloads

I have like 200 PMs this week on this RP alone. I think everyone loved the game and just want to play it. Can we put this past us and laugh about this later? Please resurrect this game, Laz. Personally, I just want to play. Tell me the rules and I'll abide by them. Can we just have a do over or something?

[legacyme3]

That is a hilarious screenshot.

[Jody]

I got tired of reading these victim posts after a while so I didn't quite finish, but I guess I always assumed that it was common sense not to take a role playing game into personal context and use out of story knowledge to try to bounce back into character to use it to lynch. I guess it should be in the rules, but personally it didn't occur to me and I'm assuming that that's why Lazlo didn't. It ruins the game. Sure, you don't have to give anything away, but anything you say out of character in a PM can be used against you, which is dumb because it breaks the story and the whole point of roleplaying. Yes, you couldn't tell anything yet really. It's common in these games that the first couple of nights are no lynch because there's no evidence, and afterwards, new clues come about with the new kills. Unfortunate for the innocent side? Sure, but also, do you know how hard it is for mafia to win? I just don't get why a single in game day warrants everyone trying to PM each other to get information because there's nothing to find out yet in game. It's not supposed to be solved in a couple nights.

 

I think the whole situation is just stupid. I only just caught up last night and apparently pretty much everyone playing knows what everyone else is already because everyone was so stupidly forthcoming with their roles. So that just ruins everything. I don't blame anyone in particular, but I think it's dumb to be all WELL I HAD NO IDEA DON'T BLAME ME MAKE IT A RULE, DON'T ACCUSE ME OF BREAKING THEM. Really? It's pretty obvious to see how this was blown, no need for the defensive attitude.

 

We'll just have to try harder next time now that we're all on the same page, and it'll be really great.