22 replies to this topic

[Monkeydog]

Some news~ kind of.

I made a new front page, not all the links work at the moment (no overall page for Games, Game Makers, and no Music pages whatsoever) but there are links to resources, games, game makers, etc... Plus some secret links (not very secret) to some secret (once again, not very secret) areas on MP.

Thanks to Puffin for making the new logo. We love you.

Also new is an IRC channel BLU has been wanting us all to join.

I'm usually always on, so is Hyperlisk and BLU.

Server name: irc.freenode.net
Channel: #MonkeyPro

Or simply:
irc://irc.freenode.net/MonkeyPro

"But Monkey!" you might say, "I am lame and I have no IRC client, what can I do?"

Well it's easy silly fictitious person in my head. Trillian, Miranda, and Pidgin are all capable of connecting to IRC channels. If you lack any of those clients (and if you actually are using AIM/MSN/ICQ/Yahoo messengers, then you really should ditch them for one of those three in the first place), and use Firefox, you can install the ChatZilla extension. Or you can be all retro styles and use mIRC.

If you don't, or can't, use any of these, well then Google it. I think Adium is also capable of IRC, but I don't know, I don't have a Mac.

Well that's it, I think, so, until next year! (kidding...hopefully)

[Stars]

<3's the not-so-secret links

[Monkeydog]

Bleh, the page doesn't work well at all with IE.

Oh well. I tried. IE just has a problem rendering things well. D:

[Stars]

People shouldn't be using IE anyway. It's their own fault if they can't see things properly on the front page.

[Stars]

you don't know how wrong you aaaaaare. late breaking story: different rendering engines render things differently, but first a story which broke earlier today, THE GRASS IS GREEN. besides that shitting over two-thirds of your market is not sound web design and is about as much a user or indeed a software problem as a car breakdown is the fault of the driver or the bodywork, I could go over this for 100 hours.

I AM MIRC I AM RETRO STYLES hooray IRC now you guys are as cool as I am :)

edit: fuuuuuck why are rockman, geodude and geoduck all registered nicks !! you chose a dick server :(

[Monkeydog]

you don't know how wrong you aaaaaare. late breaking story: different rendering engines render things differently

Yeah but that doesn't make it right.

There are standards to rendering that IE just doesn't like to follow, and likes to make it's own BS tags and stuff. Which makes IE really annoying sometimes because you kind of have to hack your own code to get it to work with things that it should just work with if it was being standards compliant. (in fact, right now there is a little hack for IE sitting on the page, but it still doesn't work 100% perfectly, bleh)
But IE truly has a problem with some actual CSS codes sometimes, which is what makes the front page work, it's not that it renders it different, it's that IE sucks sometimes and isn't rendering it at all which doesn't make any sense since it's not like some magic little CSS that only every other browser ever knows.

The only rendering engine that seems to do everything 100% right is Presto. (Opera)

We were discussing this last night in the chat room...actually...

[Stars]

compliancy works both ways! coding a website that isn't browser-compliant and won't render properly in all browsers is an equally stupid idea. fuck trident isn't perfect but it is bordering on arrogance to say 'nope fuck two-thirds of the entire browser market if you don't adhere to these very strict standards / add proprietary add-ons you are not standards-compliant no fuck if we are going to help you develop standards-compliancy in your engine either'. this is bloody typical of the belligerent and deconstructive attitude of the W3C and somewhat by extension the WaSP.

incidentally although you're correct in saying that Presto is the best of the current bunch no rendering engine has ever been standards-compliant, which is more of a comment on the ludicrous standards rather than the engines themselves!

in short: web standards are a minefield and are completely ridiculous.

[Monkeydog]

Well why the fuck would you make a rendering engine to not adhere to standards so I don't have to fucking do everything topsy turvey just for one damn browser.

It's like if I learned C++ all my life and then one compiler decided that it doesn't like to include <iostream> so I have to go figure out some other way to input from the keyboard.

I tried getting it to work with IE, it kinda works with IE, but fuck IE if it's not going to do simple CSS things like every browser should. We have standards so when I learn how to code in CSS/HTML I don't have to figure out how to purposefully break them just because a rendering engine just doesn't want to use them. Trident is really stupid.

[Stars]

Well why the fuck would you make a rendering engine to not adhere to standards so I don't have to fucking do everything topsy turvey just for one damn browser.

Trident predates the standards.

It's like if I learned C++ all my life and then one compiler decided that it doesn't like to include <iostream> so I have to go figure out some other way to input from the keyboard.

this is an irrelevant analogy for the same reason.

I tried getting it to work with IE, it kinda works with IE, but fuck IE if it's not going to do simple CSS things like every browser should.

correct me if I'm wrong but it looks a lot like you are using the nav properties. they're CSS3 properties and have very little support across all the current browsers.

[Monkeydog]

Actually what I'm doing is CSS2 stuff, which shooooould work with IE, but it doesn't. Just list and hover things.

Also Trident doesn't predate the standards. Well I mean current standards, I guess, but Trident came out after W3C started setting standards. And any good layout engine should be kept up to date. I mean newest IE is just a few months, right? What I'm doing works with CSS like 5~6 years ago. And IE is notorious for not implementing all CSS/HTML correctly, for really no reason.

It's silly that I learn a language, only for one program to refuse to do my perfectly correct code. Which is why I brought up the analogy. I can write perfect code, but just because something doesn't want to render it correctly doesn't make it my fault, that is why we have standards, so I don't have to run into problems like that.

The only way to get that menu working 100% (it works badly right now) is to just change it all to Javascript. (Right now Javascript is tricking IE into just making the menu appear) Which is silly since I should just be able to do CSS. (and Javascript leads to other problems)

I'm not saying I should just abandon IE users because their rendering engine sucks, I spent a while getting it to do what it does now. I'm just saying IE fucking sucks for not actually rendering everything, and picking and choosing, which makes it hard to do some simple things with it. And it is annoying.

[Stars]

Also Trident doesn't predate the standards. Well I mean current standards, I guess, but Trident came out after W3C started setting standards.

referring to CSS2 which wasn't originally released until roughly a year after the original Trident release. fun fact: the new release of Trident (4.0) has full CSS2 support.

What I'm doing works with CSS like 5~6 years ago. And IE is notorious for not implementing all CSS/HTML correctly, for really no reason.

thanks for your sweeping generalisation there but you aren't really convincing anyone (rethink that because what you have basically said there is "IE has problems because people say so")

as I said, Trident precedes the original development of CSS2 and the W3C's belligerent attitude toward Microsoft meant that Trident couldn't be incrementally developed alongside CSS2 because they weren't privy to how the standard would be updated! the development of CSS3 means a line drawn under CSS2, so Microsoft can finally bring Trident in line with the complete CSS2 standard.

basically it's a complete minefield because while Microsoft were a victim of circumstance and poor timing (though they couldn't have known at the time), the development of browsers such as FireFox and Opera in incrementally developing alongside CSS2 gave the illusion that Microsoft weren't doing it, when the more accurate picture is that Microsoft couldn't have done it! web designers in turn wanted to vent their understandable frustration so they scapegoated Microsoft for being in an unavoidable situation. it's become a real cliché!

the beauty of hindsight, eh?

Actually what I'm doing is CSS2 stuff, which shooooould work with IE, but it doesn't. Just list and hover things.

surely you're using HTML for the data and CSS for the formatting? (as it was designed)

*grinds down the side of the eiffel tower* keep the change kid

[Monkeydog]

Yes but you're missing the fact that even though IE may not have had the chance to be standards complaint in development, and is now, it doesn't change that IE is the only browser I know of that actually renders CSS differently. Which doesn't really have anything to do with if Microsoft could or could not keep up with standards, it has to do with WHY THE FUCK RENDER CSS DIFFERENTLY?

Which is the problem with the menu. IE renders some CSS hovers and widths different than...how CSS is supposed to work. Which makes the menu not work on IE. There is really no excuse why Microsoft would do this, especially in IE8 and Trident 4.0. And even if they weren't able to keep up with W3C and CSS2, a good company would be able to easily fix problems quickly and not take long delayed droughts of no new releases. (which is why Linux distros are so better praised than Windows/Mac)

But whatever, it's not working, and I'm not going to go try soon to get the javascript hack to work any better.

[Stars]

Yes but you're missing the fact that even though IE may not have had the chance to be standards complaint in development, and is now, it doesn't change that IE is the only browser I know of that actually renders CSS differently.

errr no, you're right, it doesn't change that, it explains it. you aren't really making any sense here.

Which doesn't really have anything to do with if Microsoft could or could not keep up with standards, it has to do with WHY THE FUCK RENDER CSS DIFFERENTLY?

again the reason is because while other developers knew how it was supposed to be handled Microsoft didn't. you are trying to debunk the reasons by just re-explaining the apparent problems so we're going in circles!

And even if they weren't able to keep up with W3C and CSS2, a good company would be able to easily fix problems quickly and not take long delayed droughts of no new releases.

think about the amount of software and media Microsoft has to keep up with. all the supported OSes at various times as well as their proprietary software, all the Office applications, the MSN, MSNBC, the Xbox, the Zune... do you see now why it would take heaps longer?

[Monkeydog]

It may have explained it in the past, but these are things that should have worked five years ago. Microsoft has have far than enough time to fix the little oddities IE has had with CSS, but they seem to refuse to.

And that doesn't really explain anything, Microsoft having so many products. They all have different teams to deal with it.

[Stars]

It may have explained it in the past, but these are things that should have worked five years ago. Microsoft has have far than enough time to fix the little oddities IE has had with CSS, but they seem to refuse to.

you've inadvertantly hit the nail on the head here, it does seem that way if you ignore the fact that the W3C deliberately refused to work with Microsoft to help them develop their CSS2 compliance. without access to the standards themselves, there's nothing Microsoft could have done aaand I've done this bit already. they couldn't develop Trident to deal with the newly created compliancy issues because they didn't have access to the intricate technical details of the newly developed CSS2 properties.

And that doesn't really explain anything, Microsoft having so many products. They all have different teams to deal with it.

diffusion of the workforce is not good for development!

[Arutha]

rockman your kind of an asshole arn't you...

[Stars]

just trying to dispel the ol' Trident myths :(

[Hyperlisk]

rockman your kind of an asshole arn't you...

Not really. But it does show why MP is awesome. You can argue with an admin and not get banned.

[Arutha]

lol ture

[Monkeydog]

rockman your kind of an asshole arn't you...

Not really. But it does show why MP is awesome. You can argue with an admin and not get banned.

Awesome or lazy.